Our third episode of “in the hearts of men” podcast

This is the third episode of Robbie J. Bone and Kirby Freeman’s Podcast: In the hearts of men.

In today’s episode, we discuss How to Navigate Conflict With Love and Integrity.

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>>> To sign up for the Equanimous Man men’s circle, or to learn more, click here <<<

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[00:00] Welcome everyone. We’re in a beautiful spot in nature here and we just picked some wonderful Shantrell mushrooms which was a very lovely adventure. Really had a lot of fun. And today we wanted to go a little deeper into some relational dynamics particularly as it relates to conflict within relationship. And we
[00:26] were reflecting before the podcast talking about this and reflecting on conflicts within a conscious relationship when both parties are open, willing and able to meet each other in resolving the conflict and also navigating conflicts with relationships with those who are not wanting to grow
[00:45] or are perhaps held in a certain way in their life and perhaps for lack of a better term stubbornness in themselves. And we all have those people whether they’re in our community, our work, our family, the world at large and yeah, how to navigate that in a good way. So yeah, it’s really
[01:07] wonderful to be here again and to share with each other and >> with whoever is out there watching and listening. And yeah, I would love to begin by inviting you Kirby to share what’s alive for you in this conversation >> and any experiences or uh lessons you’ve
[01:27] learned around conflict and your some of your philosophies around it. >> Yeah, thank you Robbie. It’s a It’s a really tender challenging um topic for me as you know I have experienced a lot of conflict in in relationship in particular and in my journey I’ve navigated through uh really not being
[01:51] conscious in it and acting and reacting from a really wounded uh not centered place you know >> and through the years I’ve gained tools to witness it see it hold it and then be able to actually respond with clarity and from my heart and show up and hold that space in a really good way. And
[02:13] alive in me in particular is things that happen with my partner and how that unfolds and um and navigating the uncertain waters of conflict. It can be really challenging. You know, for me, um, I have some really deep wounds in it. And if I in relationship don’t feel like my efforts have been considered, I
[02:36] go into a place of wounding because I don’t feel respected. And I used to act from that place and act passive aggressively. Um, and I think a lot of it I would actually put covert contracts in place that I didn’t articulate and I didn’t even really know that I was aware of. And a
[02:55] and a prime example of this was I’m going to cook dinner clean and get everything ready and I’m going to expect sex, >> right? >> And if I didn’t get it, I’d be pissed. >> And it’s wild because, you know, I it would be totally okay in my vision if I
[03:13] were to articulate this and and find some form of agreement field around it. But I didn’t know I was doing it. And it just unfolded and happened. And I felt like I deserved to be um given that uh my end of the contract because of what I had done. And if I didn’t, I didn’t feel considered and I
[03:35] would go into a deep place of shutting down and my needs weren’t met. But I wasn’t articulating what I needed or what I wanted. Right? So uh I just had expectations around it and yeah so so that’s one place and now what I really like to do in that is see it before it happens. witness it,
[03:58] create that deep sense of like, okay, this is what I foresee happening today or tonight or and I check in with my partner. It’s like, how do you feel about me showing up and really serving you tonight and like making you dinner and creating a a
[04:17] conscious container for us to connect in in a a sexual way later? And that doesn’t necessarily mean penetrative sex. That means connecting in a way that could go that direction, but in a deep intimate way is more so than than sexual. It’s like creating that container. And and more often than not,
[04:39] when I articulate it in that way, it’s a yes. And sometimes it’s a no, but I know it’s a no. And then I can hold and conduct myself differently and and work through it in those ways. So, it’s really a beautiful way to navigate what my needs are and and also holding my partner in whatever she’s
[05:01] going through. >> Yeah. So, it’s it’s tricky, you know, um covert contracts in particular. Do covert contracts land at all with you? Like, how does this uh this feel for you? >> Yeah, certainly. I feel like covert contracts.
[05:26] There was times in my life where I was operating from that in a very unconscious way and wasn’t even aware that I was operating with a covert contract, which for those of you listening that are perhaps unfamiliar with this term covert contracts, I first learned about it in a really wonderful
[05:43] book called No More Mr. Nice Guy. >> And he very much highlights that as a prime tendency of basically manipulation >> in a way. It’s kind of an ugly word. However, there’s a way of kind of overriding or trying to override someone else’s free will instead of just saying,
[06:03] “Hey, I would like this is my need. Can you help me meet it?” Or, “This is my desire.” It’s like, “How can I do these things to get what I want?” >> And it’s an unclear agreement. Mhm. >> It’s an unclear agreement field, which is kind of like it’s almost like a contract that has all this fine print
[06:21] that is easy to miss and then someone agrees to it thinking it’s this innocent kind gesture and there’s actually an undertone of expectation. And if that expectation’s not met, then the person who’s performing the contract or the the thing will retract their love, >> pull back, or maybe they get angry or
[06:38] they get resentful or it bubbles up over time >> and the other person tends to be taken off guard. they’re kind of like, whoa, what the heck? Didn’t see that coming. I I didn’t know that was brewing inside of you. >> And so for me, I’ve certainly learned a
[06:52] lot about that. And it’s a path of transparency >> that I found is being transparent as we can. And the challenge for me in the past and still to today to a degree like continuing to come in touch with my needs and what my desires are >> because sometimes
[07:13] in thatclarity we can’t be clear with someone else. It’s like just because we’re unclear on our needs doesn’t mean we don’t have them. It just means we’re not clear on them. >> And so be in being unclear with myself, how could I ever be have a how could I
[07:26] ever be clear with someone else? >> And then it tends to come out in these unclear ways. Mhm. >> where where it’s like that >> it’s not like a conscious thing of like, oh, I’m going to do this thing and create this covert contract so I get this result.
[07:41] >> It’s more, you know, subconscious and a misconception of love as well >> is is where it showed up in my life where it’s like, oh yeah, if you love someone, you just show up in this certain way >> and and I’m not allowed to have needs or desires
[07:57] >> if I love someone. >> Yeah. which is just so far from the truth >> because if we don’t speak our needs and desires, it creates less connection >> and more separation and generally that >> lessens the capacity to love one another on a deep level.
[08:14] >> So yeah, I found this fine line as well between kindness and niceness >> where it’s like we don’t always need to to do anything with any need for anything in return. And sometimes it feels really good to just give unconditionally without expectation like, “Hey, I’m making dinner tonight or
[08:31] I’m doing this thing and I want nothing from you. My need is just to show my love.” >> And you know, in that >> that can be a beautiful kindness >> and act of service. And then sometimes we do have needs that we want met >> and and that can still be kind,
[08:50] >> still be an act of service and kindness while still asking to receive something. in return. And so what’s interesting that I’ve noticed about covert contracts in this dynamic is the law of giving and receiving >> and how true giving is also to receive. >> And if we’re not able to receive, we
[09:10] tend to not really be giving authentically, but actually taking. >> And so that’s the energy of the covert contract is like it seems like there’s generosity in giving, but it’s actually to try to take something. >> There’s not a receptivity. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. That’s really beautiful and well
[09:27] said. And I feel like a like a a really big part of uh acting this out in a conscious good way is first and foremost distilling and understanding what the individual’s needs are, right? It’s like cultivating needs. And I feel that comes through curiosity and exploring and exploring all sorts of things. Like you
[09:49] know 10 years ago I didn’t know that I loved mushroom picking. Now I mushroom pick often and it’s like such a beautiful way to connect. So and and that I would say is a need for me to connect with the forest, to connect with the land and just to really be in it. And I feel like finding that path in
[10:06] each individual because everybody’s different um as far as what their needs are can be a really uh key component is a really necessary key component to um articulating them and finding a good way, you know, cuz I before I go back to where I was, I didn’t know that I was doing that. I I didn’t know that sex was
[10:26] a need. I thought it was a want and you know um not necessarily sex being a need but but having sexual energy flowing in my body is a need and that can come through self-pleasure. It can come through um you know with a partner, it can be through um through breath work and actually like just tapping into that
[10:48] energy on my own accord. Um but cultivating what your needs are I think is a really beautiful spot to start >> and how so thank you that’s that’s really a wonderful distillation too of getting to the root of so much conflict which is unmet needs and unmet expectations based on needs that are
[11:10] perhaps not articulated. >> Yeah. >> And yeah how do you relate unmet needs or unclear needs to conflict? Good question. Thank you. Yeah. So when when a need goes unspoken, I feel like there is energy there and that creates a little bit of a charge,
[11:31] >> right? So if if we know that we have a need or even even if we don’t know that we have a need and we do not articulate that to our partner or loved ones around us, some form of charge is created and and expectation that that need is going to be met without even articulating it. And that is the the really beginning
[11:51] stages of so many disconnections. >> Um so in my life when that were to happen I would I would shut down and I would reserve and and drop back almost into a a freeze response where I just wouldn’t say anything and I would just go really inward and almost not be able to say anything because I didn’t really
[12:14] know what was happening. And then I would lean into using drugs and alcohol to cope with it, which would create a bigger disconnection in the dynamic that I was in. >> So I see I see it as just that that little charge happening when we do not articulate it is the seed of the of many
[12:32] disconnections. M >> um and I feel like many circumstances above that play out on a more surface level, but I feel like that is a a fundamental of disconnection and of uh conflict in relationship. >> Yeah. >> Yeah,
[12:49] I can relate to that. And what comes through is like conflict usually has some sort of charge and there’s often some form of hurt feelings and there can often be the taking of something personal. >> And sometimes that can be more justified than others. Sometimes it’s
[13:10] >> it’s a story we tell ourselves that simple communication can clarify a lot of things. And then sometimes people do hurt each other intentionally and unintentionally. >> And it’s still wise, you know, kind of the four agreements like don’t take anything personally.
[13:25] >> You’ll be far happier. However, we’re all human and it’s going to happen. >> It’s almost impossible. >> Yeah. Right. It’s a it’s a high it’s a high goal to have. >> Yeah. And how so often the need for like what comes through for me is the need for love in relationship,
[13:42] the need for freedom, the need for togetherness >> which to me that also translates into like togetherness and love especially translates into intimacy >> and sexual connection as well. So intimacy in connecting in the hearts and our and our inner world and then also
[14:01] the intimacy of physical connection with ourel and another. Mhm. >> And so often if those needs are not met, we can feel hurt because if we’re not if the need for love is not being reciprocated, like let’s say someone in our family is not able to love us in the way we need, then it can create a
[14:22] conflict, >> hurt feelings, >> feeling rejected, >> the needs not being met. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It’s really well said, brother. I’m curious in not to switch gears
[14:35] completely, but to go into the actual conflict, I have a question for you. >> And so there’s um a couple and they um come upon a rift and they’re both really activated and triggered in the moment. In this circumstance, how would you advise somebody to lean into conflict resolution? What are the first steps for
[15:00] you? Yeah, for me it’s getting clarity which often requires space >> because when we have two when when two people are charged with each other, >> there’s so much tension and emotional upheaval that it tends to create a
[15:20] distortion in our field to be able to perceive things clearly because our our past experiences or woundings come to the surface and then create like a >> a pair of sunglasses that change our whole vision of reality and that person. And so we want to get clarity on what’s alive for us and what’s happening within
[15:40] us, which unless we have someone who’s present, who’s able to be a third party like a a counselor, a therapist or someone coach or someone who can guide you in a process, it’s very hard for two people that are emotionally charged >> to actually resolve it with one another >> in that moment of charge. So having
[15:58] clarity, taking space and grounding and then looking inward and seeing like what is why is this such a charge for me? >> Not what did that person do. >> Although sometimes it can be helpful to reflect on that, but sometimes we shine the light of clarity so much on the other
[16:18] >> we lose sight of our own inner clarity >> or on the story. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. And so shining that inner light of clarity within and really looking at like what is this bringing up for me
[16:30] >> from perhaps the past or other experiences or patterns or shadows >> and then what is the the need that I have >> in the conflict that wasn’t met or the need in moving forward >> and then having some format of coming together to connect
[16:49] which yeah that’s that’s like dependent on the couple. However, creating a safe space is really important. >> Mh. >> And often when we have a lot of charge, it doesn’t always feel safe, which is another reason why it is good to try to
[17:04] as much as we can ground our energy, take responsibility, >> ownership. >> Yeah. Ownership. Exactly. Which to me is what the space provides. Provides a sense of ownership. >> And then creating that safe space to express. And what I’ve found really
[17:18] helpful is that some of the tenants and principles of non-violent communication >> and the format itself can be a little dry. You know, it can kind of be a bit >> repetitive. >> Repetitive. Yeah. However, the essence of it that I’ve taken away is the radical responsibility.
[17:34] >> And then also refraining from using the word you as much as possible. >> Like that’s huge in conflict, >> right? As soon as you say you, it’s suddenly like, whoa, I’m on this. I’m on in the hot seat and I need to defend myself. I’m under attack. >> Even though it’s like not always the
[17:49] case, just like that one word you is like a >> fanning a flame. >> And so as much as we can, speaking from our own experience, >> and sometimes Yeah. logistically in English sometimes you have to say you like when you said this thing, but
[18:03] >> as much as we can, how did we how did we what was our internal experience? >> Yeah. >> And feeling about it. >> That’s really beautiful. Thank you for for sharing that. I want to touch on a part and that’s the space taking that you brought up that um can often be
[18:17] really triggering for people in itself especially when they’re already triggered and that is if you’re at you’re at home and say or I’m at home and I choose to leave >> and I choose to leave to take space. So, I feel like there’s a key structure that I like to hold and use every time that
[18:35] this happens to maintain a sense of safety and to not flare up the wound of abandonment because often when somebody leaves the other feels, well, are they ever coming back, you know, and abandonment can be really easily flared. So, what I really like to do there is articulate my intentions. I need to take
[18:53] some space >> and I’m going to be gone for one hour and if I need more time after that I will come back and I will speak that I need more space and I’ll take that again and then I’ll come back after the space has been taken and similar process to finding the inner clarity and really
[19:11] sitting with where this shows up in me is is necessary having the intention to come back together and revisit the conversation when both are feeling um less triggered and less activated in their nervous system is a really powerful way. But I feel like that’s important to speak to because so many
[19:32] people take space and it ends up doing more damage, but it can be really productive and safety can be created in it with simple structure. >> Yeah. Like taking space doesn’t mean we’re going to become all aloof and ghosting. >> Mhm.
[19:49] >> But that people feel that. Mhm. >> Right. Because that’s like so many people do that these days, right? But not conscious men. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Totally. >> Yeah. And there’s a way to
[20:01] to take space and create that loving safety just through simple communication. Mhm. >> Even if we’re upset >> and like we can’t say it in in the most cohesive way, just saying, “Hey, I’m really upset and I’m taking space and I love you and I don’t like
[20:18] >> I can’t meet you in that love right now, so I’m going to take care of myself >> and I’ll be back in 15 minutes and revisit or an hour and revisit and if you need more space, take it then.” >> Yeah. Another part after the after you sit, you know, and and speak to perhaps we should go into that a little bit
[20:36] speaking to like when you come back together after taking space because I feel like space is necessary for conflict resolution to find the clarity. But when we come back together, how do we navigate it from that place? How do you navigate the conversation without getting really triggered again?
[20:53] >> Right. Yeah. And I’m curious what comes up for you in that. >> Yeah. So, what I really like to do is I like to connect with my my partner or the person that I’m there with um through eye gazing without words, >> through just feeling them and being in
[21:11] their presence and then speaking and tapping directly into my heart and feeling, you know, what I am wanting out of this. be it a need and more often than not is I want to feel connected again after and I just want this to kind of be over but I have to go through the steps to bring it into
[21:31] right relation. So I take a couple of really deep breaths and then I speak from that place from my heart and I speak my truth with using eye statements and using as little projection as I can and really owning my part of it. owning that I feel um I’m feeling I’m not feeling considered because when I was
[21:52] little sometimes I really didn’t feel like others were considering me and I recognized that my little six-year-old boy that didn’t feel considered was uh acting up in this place and feeling very similar and often times in just drawing um that childhood event to now and and neurologically connecting the two
[22:16] creates a softening in me and therefore a softening in my partner, >> right? And I invite um this to be very clear communication without interruption. So one person speaks and then the other person speaks to fully be heard because I feel when we create a climate where each person feels seen,
[22:34] heard and safe in conflict resolution, the end product is really beautiful. >> Yeah. Thank you. Something that arises in that of like really hearing is the ability to drop into presence. >> Sometimes like you can feel when you’re talking to
[22:58] someone and they’re thinking about what they’re going to say >> in any moment in a conversation and it doesn’t feel good. It it feels like for me at least I notice >> it doesn’t have the same flow and rhythm whether it’s a casual conversation, a deep conversation or a conflictbased
[23:13] conversation. So really being just in a state of receptivity as much as we can when the other is sharing >> and to then also take time to share like we don’t need to speak right away like if it’s our turn to share we can actually take a pause >> a breath
[23:30] >> take a few deep breaths take be like I’m just going to sit with this for a minute >> like it’s better to choose our words carefully than to react >> because I know I’ve spoken in moments when it’s more from just like not listening to my heart and then if I speak from the mind it often has
[23:48] >> an effect that’s unhelpful >> and that’s a prime example as to why conflict resolution doesn’t hap doesn’t happen well when both people are activated >> because the level of reactivity is really high when a person is activated >> so dissolving that and coming back to a
[24:07] place of center can facilitate it >> it’s really beautiful >> thank you >> yeah totally Yeah, I really loved the way you articulated it as well. It’s uh it’s an art and a skill. >> Yeah. >> That requires practicing.
[24:23] >> Agreed. And then after the conflict has been uh the charge has been either removed or really significantly decreased. I love creating a space to connect, >> a space of um being in each other’s energy. And and that and this can be physical, it can be through massage, it
[24:42] can be through eye gazing, it can be through breathing together, it can be going for a walk. Each couple will have their um individual idiosyncras idiosyncrasies as to how they like to um connect in deep ways, but creating and holding that time together as sacred >> and navigating it as consciously as we
[25:04] can. >> It’s not the time to hop back on the phone. It’s the time to really um double down on the presence that you feel in the conflict resolution and carry that forward for the coming hours or days. >> Yeah. Yeah. It’s a a reprogram as well in our nervous system.
[25:22] >> Yeah. >> To go from conflict to resolution to then not just resolution but deep bonding and connecting. >> Yeah. And I’m at a place now where I say thank you to triggers because it allows for me to see deeper um parts of myself that need to be looked at
[25:40] >> so that it doesn’t happen again. >> And you know offering gratitude to the activation often helps me dissolve it. [Music] >> That’s beautiful. >> Yeah. I love that >> that mindset shift. >> Yeah. of of the gratitude, appreciation
[26:00] and opportunity for growth to look for look for the lessons in it and see it as as like a workout that’s making us stronger, more resilient, >> and having a greater capacity for love. >> Yeah, >> it’s good. Yeah. Thank you. Mhm. >> Do you have any last bits you would like
[26:24] to share here in this podcast, Robbie? >> I feel Yeah. Just to touch on if we have conflict with someone we can’t resolve the conflict with >> to bring ourself I feel like one way is to bring oursel through this this whole thing we just talked about as more of an
[26:50] individual >> which is limited >> how it’s not going to necessarily have the same effect on our relationship with that person. >> However, it can help us have more peace >> in our heart. Mhm. >> And that’s also where we can debrief
[27:06] with someone who’s, you know, not that person and even do a practice of asking someone we trust to like embody that person’s energy. >> Yeah. >> And say the things we need to say because so often in conflict, the deepest wound is when we hold back our
[27:22] truth or we hold back what we need to say. >> And sometimes sometimes that’s just life. Sometimes it’s just how it is. And and sometimes it’s it’s I don’t know if it’s always necessary, but it it can seem to be if someone’s very inflammatory or unable to
[27:40] meet you in responsibility, it’s like you’re just going to put a make a big fire in your life. >> And and is it worth is it really that important to speak our truth in those moments? I guess that’s an individual. >> I say yes. It’s important to speak truth with compassion and love and not take
[27:56] things personally. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and I think that’s a really beautiful um uh closing bit that you shared there with you know either running the practice by yourself. >> What I prefer to do and I find more
[28:11] impactful is to have a standin >> to have somebody come and like you are embodying this person. >> Mhm. are you well you know obviously asking for consent to see if they have the space to do so and to hold that for a period of time but that’s where I feel you know it’s not it’s not as beneficial
[28:29] as having the person but it’s the next best thing >> yeah I’ve had that experience before with the standins and it’s it’s allowed me to go into a deep place of breakthrough >> and getting to the core of my own words that need to be spoken and also loving
[28:52] myself more deeply. >> Yeah. >> Getting to the deeper part of me that’s hurt and needs love and presence. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Oh, this has been a really beautiful
[29:07] >> uh shoot. I’m I love being in the rainforest of Vancouver Island. It’s just a magical place to be. Thank you for your words. >> Yeah. I thank you for showing up the way that you do with integrity, with love, >> yeah, with respect >> and speaking from your heart.
[29:23] >> I really appreciate you. >> And I appreciate all of the viewers watching this. >> Hopefully, you got something out of this that uh that will help you with conflict resolution. >> Yeah. And and let us know if you have any comments, anything you resonate with
[29:41] or something that you don’t agree with. And if you have a different perspective, we’d love to hear it. Or other ways that you navigate conflict in your life, we’d love to hear from you to comment or share with us in some way. It can inspire us to deepen in our path of learning and also could inspire new
[29:58] conversations in the future. >> And I’m also really excited. Today is a apicious day >> because we have our first Aquamus Man online men’s circle call >> in just a few hours. And yeah, it feels really expansive and exciting to sink into. And the
[30:18] invitation is for all men who are needing a space to deepen into these kinds of conversations that that we’re sharing here. And a place that is safe for you to come and share your heart and receive guidance, support, brotherhip, and all the rest that a group of men can offer to each other. Mhm.
[30:38] >> And so, as we’ve shared before, this is an ongoing offering that we’re going to continue to build and grow. And so, enrollment is open any time. All that we need is to just hop on a call and get to know each other a bit before the official sign up. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Robbie.
[30:58] >> Yeah. And thanks again, Kirby, for embarking on this path together and sharing your wisdom and your presence and your resonance here and with this group. And yeah, I feel really grateful. So >> yeah, >> I relate. Yeah, thank you. And
[31:15] I look forward to what’s next. >> Yeah, >> yeah, mushrooms. >> Yeah, >> garlic butter and mushrooms. >> Oh yeah, it’s going to be tasty. >> All right. Well, have a beautiful day everyone.